ITTSB.EU Blog Forum
ITTSB Blog Specific => ITTSB General Discussion => PC computing hardware - software => Topic started by: Kiriakos GR on December 19, 2022, 02:35:20 PM
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December 19, 2022
Today I did receive a note from Seasonic EU marketing HQ that I am going to receive product sample of MagFlow 1225 PWM 3-Fan Kit.
Personally I was not after of any DC fan product samples.
ITTSB test lab this is well organized to test everything, but I do prefer of me keeping a safe distance regarding promotion of PC cooling accessories and mostly of their worshipers.
Intro:
25 years ago, I was the first Greek engaging at computer case modifications, it was a time that all computer cases was looking alike, and case cooling potentials was also identical and basic.
We the beginners at computer components overclock we had to use our personal technical skills and to develop and or modify our own metal PC case (tower) in order internal components temperature this to be lower than before.
We were forced to become developers of active PC cooling solutions, we had to come with fresh ideas, and a new DIY skills competition between enthusiasts this started.
We started to share worldwide photographs of our work, in forums and website, and many websites hosted our photographs as PC case cooling modifications work.
In sort: Extreme performance Case mods.
All of us we was at the age of 25 years old, PC computing and Windows 95 was our starting point, when the big race this started at the period of Win98 = the starting point of 3D gaming platform.
Today:
Several industries now offer Gaming-PC-Ready case towers (economy), and all sorts of accessories, and all sort of decorative options.
Classic (well build) and heavy case towers, with respectable potentials at silent case cooling, these now are renamed as Medium server case box solution, and the spot lights of fashion are not in focus of such range of products.
It is expected that vast majority of young computer users, to be totally unaware about this advanced in quality pack of product solutions.
Such cases are not sold as cheap as 100$ or Euro, but still us related to IT world, we do prefer them no matter of their price.
Sort explanation of what Seasonic MagFlow DC fan it’s all about?
MagFlow DC fan motor and blades, this has roots of the fundamental DC fan design, which this is with us in the past 40 years.
It is expected a new and quality made product this to also come with recent made improvements at DC motor design and even blades.
DC fan design this is not correlated with DC fan actual performance in every application.
For example all well-known Japanese factory, they have several series of DC fan products, different shapes, dimensions, motor speed options, waterproof, dust proof, and much more options are available for a buyer (electrician engineer) him to choose from.
Seasonic MagFlow 120 mm this is primarily a Case Fan:
At case fan range of products they are hundreds of competitors but a smaller number of top class winners.
The winners did not gain our preference and or high ranks of preference due consumers at their first day of product release.
Any DC fan model it should operate first for several years in order it build quality to be considered as unquestionable.
At the market of the year 2023 they are available two technologies of DC fan blades design, the classic one with small improvements, and the new this aiming to serve exclusively the market of CPU water blocks.
These few products aiming to deliver improved airflow at water cooling radiator, these are poor performers as case cooling choices.
Seasonic MagFlow this is a package of new design ideas, new ideas at DC fan electrical connectivity, new ideas of how two or more DC fan they can connect to its other.
And even new ideas are introduced of how a DC fan this can be attached over the case without the use of screws, at computer cases these not made of aluminum.
So the proper set of words for us to use as product description, these are: introduction of Seasonic MagFlow concept to the world.
Will this pack of ideas will become popular or find significant amount of early adopters?
There is no answer.
I am Kiriakos Triantafillou, industrial electrician and explorer of quality made products.
My intention this is to explore MagFlow 1225 PWM as single DC fan design and to measure and confirm electrical specifications, and to share my opinion along upcoming test results, with my Blog readers.
History has recorded so far, at the year 2004, Smart Case Fan II of Thermaltake as product design innovator.
Later at 2009, GELID Silent Series PWM and TC (long wire sensor), both won my trust as well priced and long lasting products.
At the world of industrial solution we have other kings in the regard of product reliability, Sanyo Denki along Minebea Matsushita, the most popular ones.
When I do visit computer hardware enthusiast forum, I do see few under aged consumers to burn their money, by getting extreme amount of high priced DC fan, just because their computer case this has an extreme amount of holes for them.
These are a minority, that I do wish and I do keep a long distance from them. ;D
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Seasonic MagFlow design award and other details.
It is proof of wise thought, if you are not specialist in to a sector then ask for help from another specialist.
Seasonic select for their range of PC cases, a product designer team from Taiwan.
WIDESKY Design Corporation CO., LTD Taiwan (R.O.C.)
But Seasonic also gave the job about Mag-flow DC fan aesthetics and exterior design at WIDESKY.
Back in time when both products won product design awards, Seasonic case Synchro Q7 along the Mag-flow DC fan, the original thought was these DC fan series to be named under the Seasonic case Synchro Q7.
According to that plan, we would had instead a Seasonic Synchro series of DC fan.
Now we have proofs that Seasonic changed this plan, and product series of MagFlow 1225 PWM, this is for us to use as final product name. ;)
At the photographs below we can clearly see electric motor plate in full detail.
Voltage: 12V
Current: 0.20A
2.4 Watt
12 x 0.20A= 2.4W (the math appear as correct)
Air Flow: 63.33 CFM (max.)
Rotation Speed 600~2000 ±10% RPM
At the old days, I have see DC electric motor RPM specification of ±20% RPM.
I would simply speculate here that DC motor electronics they did further improve too somewhere within 2010 up to nowadays, and RPM tolerances got smaller.
In the end of the day, at the connectivity option of two DC fan or three DC fan, the user will be able to have RPM readout of the first fan in that chain.
±10% tolerance this translates that all chain will spin at that range of RPM.
First posted review so far with RPM stats, this shown a measurement of 1993 RPM max for the specific MagFlow test sample.
It is in the nature of new DC fan, them to not reach full RPM speed, out of the box.
They should operate first for 48 hours as first run at least, prior of any evaluation, No matter of how tight it is the specification about mechanical parts and their manufacturing precision.
All motors AC or DC they are rotating engines and as such, they obey at the rules of gravity and of motor axle friction, and at much more rules.
DC Fan motor complete and accurate evaluation this is not an easy job.
Panasonic invented several years ago an DC fan testing tunnel (made of plastic parts).
This is to be sold at laboratory, for the ones aim to perform product certification for other clients.
Air Flow along Air volume measurements, they belong to scientific work, and measurements are made by expensive instruments these recently pass calibration inspection too.
At ITTSB Blog lab, I am working for some time now so to build my own DC fan testing ring.
This be of extreme measuring accuracy at DC fan power consumption and at RPM reading.
( Use of MX+B Math Function - Fluke 8846A - DC fan speed RPM measurement)
https://www.ittsb.eu/forum/index.php?topic=1641.0 (https://www.ittsb.eu/forum/index.php?topic=1641.0)
As a second summary of thoughts.
Seasonic PSU specialist requested assistance of WIDESKY Design Corporation CO., LTD Taiwan (R.O.C.)
WIDESKY has good experience at designing PC cases for use with water cooling and radiators.
Original plan was Seasonic MagFlow 1225 PWM Case Fan, to be an exclusive designed accessory for Seasonic PC cases ( Synchro Q7 ) and similar.
Nowadays the plan changed, Seasonic marketing inform us, that we are all potential customers of this Seasonic MagFlow DC fan concept.
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New opportunity for unboxing ahead 8)
Mate you have skills equal to best private investigator ;)
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19 December shipped , 22 December arrival.
I am 53 years old, but this package it did awaken the child in me.
Here it is the unboxing ;D
This is first ever Seasonic MagFlow three pack which arrives in Greece, so its a special day too. :)
Seasonic included at the shipping box, DC fan sample box, gifts along a sample of their new Type-C PSU mobile phone charger.
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Here it is the unboxing of MagFlow 1225 PWM - Three Pack ;)
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First tests of MagFlow magnetic field forces.
The fan has rubber pads at all corners, its a mix of rubber with magnetic material, but the created magnetic force its not enough to keep the fan in place with out screws.
But at the side they are two strong magnets, they are for the power connector to be attacked, and or about connecting two DC fan or triple DC fan setup.
Note: At single DC fan setup, the second side magnet, this is powerful enough to be considered as enemy of storage devices as is the Hard drive.
Seasonic did not think, them to provide any cover, an piece of metal this to work as anchor, and to minimize the magnetic field forces.
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Excellent quality of photographs !! :)
Few are aware that Kiriakos has 20 years experience as photographer along several high-end hobbyist cameras and most Olympus-Japan lens and accessory.
I have never see before in my life any DC fan magnetic fields test 8)
But neither Magflow DC fan this has equal design with a regular DC fan.
And so everything now makes sense.
I have to admit, product design and attention to detail on these DC fan, both are top level.
Equal aesthetics as to was expensive Hi-Fi amplifier, eye-candy appearance.
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eye-candy appearance.
This word helped me so to see the larger picture, as Seasonic dreamed it a year ago.
Seasonic Top PSU line it does come with eye-candy appearance (exterior design), Synchro PC case along MagFlow DC fan, this is a compilation of computer parts with the Seasonic logo in all of them.
Synchro Q7 + MagFlow + PRIME = Seasonic PC this having sum of aesthetics, as they dreamed it at the products design room. :)
All three are products with distinguishing appearance.
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eye-candy appearance.
This word helped me so to see the larger picture, as Seasonic dreamed it a year ago.
Seasonic Top PSU line it does come with eye-candy appearance (exterior design), Synchro PC case along MagFlow DC fan, this is a compilation of computer parts with the Seasonic logo in all of them.
Synchro Q7 + MagFlow + PRIME = Seasonic PC this having sum of aesthetics, as they dreamed it at the products design room. :)
All three are products with distinguishing appearance.
Happy for that, always at your service :D
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Testing Parameters:
Room temperature 30.6C
Input voltage 12,170 V DC (default 12V output of Seasonic TX-750 PSU at 50% load test).
DUTY Cycle --- RPM ---- mA DC consumption
1% ----------- 660 -- 35
10% ---------- 663 -- 35
20% ---------- 807 -- 39
30% ---------- 970 -- 44
40% ---------- 1130 -- 50
50% ---------- 1290 -- 58
60% ---------- 1440 -- 68
70% ---------- 1590 -- 81
80% ---------- 1740 -- 95
90% ---------- 1891 -- 110
99% ---------- 2017 -- 127 mA
My technical comments:
By having MagFlow 1225 DC fan under of my electrical microscope, for several hours, I did spot something irregular at DUTY Cycle input circuit.
This fan and it speed control circuit, it must accept input signal at 5V and or greater so to operate, and at below 5V and or 15Vpp of signal amplitude the DC fan does not operate.
I have never evaluated any DC fan motherboard controller circuit, speaking of PWM signal voltage amplitude, so to have clues of what is the standard as signal voltage threshold.
In contrast, I did tested a video card DC fan at identical conditions, and there is no such threshold of signal voltage amplitude, even with few mV the DC fan speed control this was operates.
I can only speculate today that MagFlow 1225 DC fan this it might have a compatibility issue with older production of motherboard.
Now feel free to enjoy the photographs of my lab and tools.
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The quantity and quality of electrical test equipment, they do steal the shine from the DC fan ;D (Visually)
Nowhere to be found such high-end DC fan testing method at the entire WEB.
True testing labs along true experts at testing, they should be supported.
Seasonic should offer you an award sponsorship in cash.
Excellent professional work, unquestionable regarding accuracy of measured results !! 8)
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Seasonic should offer you an award sponsorship in cash.
Excellent professional work, unquestionable regarding accuracy of measured results !! 8)
I will agree on that too, this is actually Seasonic MagFlow1225 PWM calibration test report.
Calibration test report for the FLUKE 8846A DMM, this costs 600 Euro.
Calibration test report for oscilloscope and or signal function generator, this is another pile of Euros that the owner has to pay.
Kiriakos he is known to perform any task, with high dedication and responsibility. 8)
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I got motivated after the single MagFlow DC Fan testing, so to proceed and at triple DC fan testing. :)
Unfortunately I believe that Seasonic it should return back at R&D room for further corrections.
At my single DC fan tests, I did spot at PWM signal circuit a critical sensitivity issue.
Now at double or triple DC fan setup, the problem becomes MORE SEVERE and or obvious.
PWM this is a signal generated by a chip over the motherboard, this dictates FAN speed due percentage change.
DC Fan industry white paper they inform that any DC fan it should obey at PWM range of 30% up to 99%.
This is also obvious at Seasonic MagFlow DC Fan at single unit testing, and so there is no problem.
At DC fan combination setup, of several connected MagFlow DC Fan in series (parallel signal input connection), a FAIL issue detected.
Triple MagFlow at 75% PWM we have a FAIL condition so them to operate.
At 80% PWM all three DC fan operates up to 99% PWM.
My technical opinion, there is a wrong control chip selection within MagFlow 1225.
PWM input this is extremely insensitive.
At Seasonic they should immediately investigate, to catch-up the issue prior the arrival of customer complains.
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I did some further research about PWM specifications white paper just for me to be at 150% at the safe side regarding doubts.
From Noctua PWM specifications white paper
PWM control input signal
As specified by Intel (c.f. “4-Wire Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) Controlled Fans”, Intel
Corporation September 2005, revision 1.3), the square wave type PWM signal has to be
supplied to the PWM input (pin 4) of the fan and must conform to the
following specifications:
• Target frequency: 25kHz, acceptable range 21kHz to 28kHz
• Maximum voltage for logic low: VIL=0,8V
• Absolute maximum current sourced: Imax=5mA (short circuit current)
• Absolute maximum voltage level: VMax=5,25V (open circuit voltage)
• Allowed duty-cycle range 0% to 100%
At single MagFlow testing, I had to boost signal voltage level higher than VMax=5,25V, and actually I had to boost my signal generator at max and up to 6.8V
The first simplest explanation of what got wrong with MagFlow design, this is PWM input issue, this has tremendously low input resistance (low impedance), this causes unwanted loading at PWM signal and source.
By doubling or tripling the load over the PWM signal source, the driving signal voltage output, this gets out of specifications, and its not sufficient any more so to drive two or more fans.
The second simplest explanation of what got wrong with MagFlow design, internal chip this is unable to perform signal PUL-UP and to amplify PWM signal as needed.
I did notify Seasonic by Twitter, I did report the issue at Seasonic Nils (EU), now the ball this is at their court.
In summary, MagFlow 120mm it does have issues, I am unaware if newer MagFlow-RGB this has also similar problems.
I would expect that Seasonic will do a public announcement, about of what they will plan to do.
If they try to hide this under the carpet ? Then too bad for them. :-X
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Last major chapter DC motor technology in Use
Seasonic this is not a DC fan manufacturer, it just used other expert partners, so them to build their MagFlow fan.
Seasonic mention hydro-bearings at the specs, but this is not 100% true.
Seasonic made their Unboxing-Magflow-3-Pack.mp4 (video), just at a few frames they do appear motor internals, along Noctua SSO2 axle support system.
I am not trying to present my talent as best industry Spy ;D
But I will demonstrate my last pack of findings at the photographs below. ;)
In summary:
WIDESKY Design Corporation CO., LTD Taiwan (R.O.C.) = exterior design
Electric DC motor = OEM factory which also produces Noctua SSO2 technology.
The unknown information, this is whom is THE GENIUS which provided the DC motor control PCB?
My closure:
Seasonic within past months it delivered several three-pack samples at unworthy hands, all product reviews which I did read they are worthless.
Very few bothered to test a single DC fan, and no one tested the complete three fan combination.
I am a Professional tester (certified electrician) along over 30 years of field experience, I hope that SEASONIC they will shown as generous to me, and pay few bills of my Blog as thanks for the delivered professional feedback.
Simple as that...
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As far I know from latest production of AWG ( signal generators), they have medium amplification up to 10Vpp.
Kiriakos did use at this test his AWG of 16Vpp.
And so, there is no doubt that Kiriakos did use one of most powerful AWG of our times.
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As far I know from latest production of AWG ( signal generators), they have medium amplification up to 10Vpp.
Kiriakos did use at this test his AWG of 16Vpp.
And so, there is no doubt that Kiriakos did use one of most powerful AWG of our times.
Well I have and a another powerful one, the PHILIPS PM5134 Function generator at 20Vpp, but 10Vpp for pulses.
https://www.ittsb.eu/DMM-Test-tools.html
But neither this monster succeed to fightback the primary issue.
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My closure:
Seasonic within past months it delivered several three-pack samples at unworthy hands, all product reviews which I did read they are worthless.
Very few bothered to test a single DC fan, and no one tested the complete three fan combination.
I am a Professional tester (certified electrician) along over 30 years of field experience, I hope that SEASONIC they will shown as generous to me, and pay few bills of my Blog as thanks for the delivered professional feedback.
Simple as that...
I do not have much of faith that Seasonic will react with the appropriate respect at Kiriakos, for the received professional feedback.
Only a serious western brand will do that, so to protect consumers and their fame.
Corsair become also reseller of keyboards and of other computers accessories, many are true FAIL products.
Never hold them self's responsible, never did any products recall.