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Author Topic: Fluke 884X-SHORT VS Keithley 8610 Shorting Plug 4-Wire (multimeter calibration)  (Read 23618 times)

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Offline Kiriakos GR

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I wrote all ready too much, about  Fluke 884X-SHORT.
But there is one detail, that I could not leave as unexplored.
And finally, and after all these years, I did discover solid proofs directly from the mouth of the beast.  ;D

Fluke 884X-SHORT this is development of 1996
FLUKE 45 Dual Display Multimeter this is another development of that era.

According to FLUKE 45 service manual...
FLUKE calibrator operator, he should use the shorting bar (SHORT) so to discharge and to null out front end offsets.
These offsets were generated at the calibration of 1000V range DC

Second use, at FLUKE 45 performance verification.....
Lowest mV DC range,  the shorting bar (SHORT) this was assisting DMM electronics, going down to lowest Noise floor faster.
100 mV (slow)  |  SHORT  |  expected display reading  -0.006   ~  +0.006


Now according to 8846A calibration certificate year 2023 (Everett Service Center)
FLUKE Calibration, they are using shorting bar (SHORT), again so to discharge and to null out front end offsets.
ZERO OFFSET TESTS (Front Input)
Configuration:  1st Range locked and maximum resolution.
Zeroed (use of SHORT) prior to measurements on the 10 and 100 ohm ranges in 2-Wire mode.
And they do that so the 13 VDC source, this not containing any other DCV electric charge.

And the Fluke 884X-SHORT, this has no other use.

And here comes the last bit of information,  when the calibrator output this is DCV  0.0000 mV
8846A measured result  -0.0003
At calibration certificate year 2011, this measurement is -0.0005

Now I can die in peace ...   8)
 
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Offline overvolt

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New myth-busting moment!
And another milestone, Kiriakos experiences pack this grow further more.  ;)

 
I am also welcoming our new Italian member  :)

Offline Kiriakos GR

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New myth-busting moment!

Indeed  :)

From the camp of Keithley Calibration procedures (year 2010).
Keithley Model 2010 ,  plus Keithley 8610 Shorting Plug.

They are two significant instructions, when the lab this has controlled room temperature.
1) Warm up the instrument for two hours.
2) Plug in Keithley 8610 Shorting Plug, and wait three minutes for thermal equilibrium.
Do not allow air drafts near this 8610 Shorting Plug.

This last detail, now explains of why this new designed Keithley 8620 enclosed version, this actually came out so to replace Keithley 8610 (Design of year 1991).  ;)   

https://download.tek.com/manual/2010-902-01(D-Oct2003)(Service).pdf

Today that I have finally gathered sum of baseline information's, these coming from both sources, I declare this ITTSB article as complete.
I do not own anything from Keithley, an so I never had a motive so to explore their own paper work in depth.
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Offline Kiriakos GR

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This must be my gift from WWW for my birthday today.  :)

An high resolution photograph of Fluke 884X-SHORT rev 4

It makes you wonder, of why FLUKE added by marker and handwriting, the marking of rev 3 and rev 4.
Due this detail alone, we cannot track down of when rev 4, this was updated for a last time.

The attached photograph, this includes an tiny amount of visual illusion, those gold plated bananas they reflect as be a mirror, portion of surrounding PCB, and there is nothing wrong with them.
Because of this detail we cannot admire or inspect close up quality of Pomona work at the banana it self.

At PCB there is an detail, which this screams by it self. 
PCB gold plating layer, this is very thick ..   ;)
................................................................................ 

FLUKE 8808A DMM, while this is nothing special in hardware, it calibration manual this has freshest FLUKE writing ( 2008 ) about calibration procedures.
Attached screenshot, this is a proof of fully automated resistance ranges and resistance ZERO calibration points.   
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Offline ClaudioF

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Here I am, after days of "radio silence." During this time, Kiriakos must have imagined all sorts of things.

Lately, I’ve been hitting the books again, reviewing university-level applied thermodynamics and thermal physics. I wanted to refresh my knowledge base so I could redesign this project with better expertise and awareness. More importantly, I’ve re-evaluated everything: requirements, causes, consequences, solutions, and expected performance.

So, I wiped the slate clean and restarted from scratch, as if I had never encountered the problem before.

I’ve always blamed the recessed, non-binding-post banana jacks for making it so difficult to build a proper shorting plug—and unfortunately, I still think that's the case.
In the HP 3457A multimeter service manual, it states: "Equipment Required. A low thermal short (copper wire) is required for this procedure." Essentially, the challenge lies in finding pure copper wire and scraping off the surface oxide before using it. Fluke, for its 8588A, uses a very simple PCB designed to be clamped directly by the binding posts.
However, with multimeters like the Keithley 2000/2001 series, HP 34401A, or Fluke 8845A/8846A, that's not an option. You are forced to use 4mm banana plugs and connect them somehow.

Fluke and Keithley chose a PCB approach; HP went with a wire. Nothing new so far—these are well-known, tedious facts. But what actually generated oceans of forum discussions and solutions ranging from the highly imaginative to the deeply practical is the PDF written by Martin L. Kidd, titled "Watch Out for Those Thermoelectric Voltages!" My only critique of his work is that he tackles the issue with a bit too much simplicity.

Unfortunately, in my opinion, anyone owning these multimeters just has to live with Seebeck coefficients. There is no magic solution, unless you bend a single solid copper rod to fit all the jacks (some have actually done this, but they ended up welding four copper segments together).
Therefore, the correct approach is to minimize the effects, or even calculate the exact error value—which is doable if you know the composition and thickness of all the layers involved.
Eliminating thermal EMF entirely means using pure copper and constantly fighting its oxidation.

Again, nothing new here. In fact, when I decided to DIY this back in January 2025, I thought the PCB should adapt to the Staubli plugs, not the other way around, because that's where the issue originates.
The intuition was right, but I targeted the wrong variable. I shouldn't have started from the Staubli banana plugs, but rather from the multimeter's jacks themselves—or better yet, from the internal construction of the DMM.

It is self-evident that the input jacks are warmer than the ambient room temperature. Martin L. Kidd mentions this as well: "It should be noted that the terminals of the DMM are at a higher temperature than room temperature, so there will always be a thermal condition to be aware of. In this case, the input thermals measured about 29 ˚C." 

So, in our case, the real issue isn't external drafts, a warm hand touching the shorting plug, or anything like that. It’s the instrument's jacks themselves heating up the banana plugs, which in turn heat up the PCB, the copper traces, the nickel, and the gold plating, creating unwanted thermal EMFs. As long as the internal temperature of the instrument is higher than the ambient temperature (which is pretty much always the case), there will be a heat flux flowing from the inside of the DMM out into the shorting plug and everything connected to it. Unfortunately, if my thermal cameras aren't lying, these temperatures are not uniform across all four jacks.
On my HP 34401A, the bottom-right jack is slightly cooler than the others, especially compared to the Sense HI terminal (top-left).

This single observation brings us to our first crossroads: should we use plugs with low thermal conductivity, like brass, or beryllium copper plugs, which have higher thermal conductivity? Choosing one over the other leads to completely different design choices for the PCB and its traces.



p.s. I used an AI to translate this post from my native language, as it's objectively much easier to write down complex, long thoughts in one's own tongue before sharing.

Offline Kiriakos GR

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Here I am, after days of "radio silence." During this time, Kiriakos must have imagined all sorts of things.

My first thought was that indeed we lost you, NASA hired you, and gave to you as a free gift of six FLUKE 8846A.  ;D ;D


About DMM and electrical transformer placement, FLUKE 8846A this has a wise design, the transformer this is moved to the right side, while Banana inputs (Front/Rear) both placed at the left side.
FLUKE 8846A this indeed run warmer 10C inside, than environmental.
Daytime to night time, there is no more than 3C difference and or of Temco influence.

 
Indeed FLUKE documentation, this does not deliver much details.
FLUKE Wiki, simplified advice as teaching, for a basic understanding.

From the other hand, Fluke 884X-SHORT this never received metrology characterization, as Zero Ohms calibration source.
But I will not hide it, I was hope that this magical FLUKE Short, this is manufactured in a way of me seeing  a perfect 0.00000 at 4W resistance mode.


The Americans, they use to say do-not leave it getting under your skin.
And or do not aloud at a source of negative energy, this spoiling your day.
We when according to the book here, we thought that there is some sort of product design secrets that FLUKE hiding from us.


AI this told me that when FLUKE is up to minimize EMF they were used tellurium copper.
This was their secret weapon.  :)
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Offline ClaudioF

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This must be my gift from WWW for my birthday today.  :) 

Here I am, always late (damn it), but happy birthday anyway.

An high resolution photograph of Fluke 884X-SHORT rev 4

It makes you wonder, of why FLUKE added by marker and handwriting, the marking of rev 3 and rev 4.
Due this detail alone, we cannot track down of when rev 4, this was updated for a last time.

The attached photograph, this includes an tiny amount of visual illusion, those gold plated bananas they reflect as be a mirror, portion of surrounding PCB, and there is nothing wrong with them.
Because of this detail we cannot admire or inspect close up quality of Pomona work at the banana it self.

At PCB there is an detail, which this screams by it self.  
PCB gold plating layer, this is very thick ..   ;)

In this regard, I'll show you the preparatory design I made on Rhinoceros last week. Believe it or not, those yellow lines were drawn before placing that photo underneath; I practically reached the same result as the person who designed the Keithley 8620.


FLUKE 8808A DMM, while this is nothing special in hardware, it calibration manual this has freshest FLUKE writing ( 2008 ) about calibration procedures.
Attached screenshot, this is a proof of fully automated resistance ranges and resistance ZERO calibration points. 

I checked the manual; the Fluke PN 2653346 is required only for DC volts and amps, I wonder if it is positive or negative.

My first thought was that indeed we lost you, NASA hired you, and gave to you as a free gift of six FLUKE 8846A.  ;D ;D

Yet it's not a bad idea, even though I prefer to design something that people can use every day; in this, Le Corbusier is my master every single day.

About DMM and electrical transformer placement, FLUKE 8846A this has a wise design, the transformer this is moved to the right side, while Banana inputs (Front/Rear) both placed at the left side. 
FLUKE 8846A this indeed run warmer 10C inside, than environmental.
Daytime to night time, there is no more than 3C difference and or of Temco influence.

Here is my 34401A; this is a thermographic photo, and the next one shows some measurements I made by inserting the thermocouple directly into the DMM's jacks. As always, physics does not lie, nothing different from what one would expect: the connectors that are higher up and closer to a heat source (the display electronics) are the warmest ones. With these temperature differences on ENIG traces, it means having at least 100/200nV of continuous offset. In my opinion, Fluke and Keithley use a lot of gold on copper and nothing more, via electroplating rather than chemical deposition.

 
Indeed FLUKE documentation, this does not deliver much details.
FLUKE Wiki, simplified advice as teaching, for a basic understanding.

Yes, it doesn't convey the reality of the problem. For example, taking the value of 10 uV/°K between copper and nickel as a given, a variation of 0.01°C leads to a 100nV variation on paper; then it becomes a real 30/40nV, but it's still measurable by a 7.5-digit DMM.

From the other hand, Fluke 884X-SHORT this never received metrology characterization, as Zero Ohms calibration source.
But I will not hide it, I was hope that this magical FLUKE Short, this is manufactured in a way of me seeing  a perfect 0.00000 at 4W resistance mode.

Exactly, no one dares to write that it is a metrological measurement instrument because the variables independent of the shorting plug are numerous.

The Americans, they use to say do-not leave it getting under your skin.
And or do not aloud at a source of negative energy, this spoiling your day.
We when according to the book here, we thought that there is some sort of product design secrets that FLUKE hiding from us.

In my opinion, there is only one secret: money. The materials and techniques are the same; the main difference lies in the access to high-cost materials and finishes. I won't tell you how many emails I've sent lately to get quotes for the PCB with nickel-free finishes (few... because few companies are able to do gold-on-copper finishes).

AI this told me that when FLUKE is up to minimize EMF they were used tellurium copper. 
This was their secret weapon.  :)

I contacted aecconnectors for a quote on custom banana plugs starting from these: https://www.aeco.tw/products/abp-1111 Let's see what they reply.


p.s. I am writing to you via email because I should have updates on the PCB and connectors soon. Besides, I intend to try something completely different (I think it is the best option to balance costs and performance; I would sign for it on a 6.5-digit DMM, on a 7.5-digit we need to test it, but I believe I will stay below 100nV).

 

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